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Post by briano on Jun 26, 2022 12:10:42 GMT 12
Thank you Steve for the answers to my further questions. Plenty to think about with the pro and cons of a sprayed lacquer finish vs. a wax finish. The wax would be easier, although I understand the benefits of the lacquer finish down the track.
Yes, lots to think about. Thank you.... Cheers, Brian.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jun 26, 2022 12:34:16 GMT 12
Just a thought, but the first time I sprayed a cabinet I bought a cheap Columbus model 45 to practice on first. Any cheap and common set would do, just so that you learn how the gun works and feels, how to mask up, and what can go wrong before working on one that matters to you.
Cheers, Steve
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Post by briano on Jun 26, 2022 15:48:48 GMT 12
Thank you Steve. That is a sensible idea. I will 'put' that into my thinking....
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Post by stanley on Jul 20, 2022 21:36:01 GMT 12
Ive found french polishing to be the easiest to get a great finish with minimal equipment, low cost and minimal risk of it going bad. Recently I've started spraying acrylic lacquer (clear coat) and get good results. The only issue with lacquer is that its clear, so if the original timber stain on the timber is worn or sanded through it shows. I use amber shallac for french polishing and it hides those minor imperfections. For a one off I'd recommend the smallest small tin of Zinsser amber shellac (Bunnings / Miter 10 both have it). It normally takes around half an hours work each day for around 4-5 days. There are some good youtube videos on french polishing
Remember to treat the cabinet for borer (don't want your hard work ruined) and to glue up all the loose bits and fill any holes or gaps.
If you want some tips on how I french polish, sing out.
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Post by briano on Jul 21, 2022 12:44:06 GMT 12
Thank you Stanley for your advice around french polishing. I watch with great interest the TV programme 'Salvage Hunters The Restorers' on the Living channel. Especially french polisher Alex Webster. Problem is the coverage of his french polishing and finishing is always all to brief. 'The Repair Shop' on TVOne is another programme I enjoy but, again, detail around the finishing is lacking.
Anyhow, thank you. Your advice and recommendation on the 'Zinsser amber shellac' is most appreciated. I have never heard of that. I will look for those YouTube videos you suggest and I will sing out if I have any questions. Many thanks...
Cheers, Brian
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Post by stanley on Jul 22, 2022 15:59:19 GMT 12
Thank you Stanley for your advice around french polishing. I watch with great interest the TV programme 'Salvage Hunters The Restorers' on the Living channel. Especially french polisher Alex Webster. Problem is the coverage of his french polishing and finishing is always all to brief. 'The Repair Shop' on TVOne is another programme I enjoy but, again, detail around the finishing is lacking. Anyhow, thank you. Your advice and recommendation on the 'Zinsser amber shellac' is most appreciated. I have never heard of that. I will look for those YouTube videos you suggest and I will sing out if I have any questions. Many thanks... Cheers, Brian I learnt French polishing from this video. His techniques work extremely well. The most important points is not having the pad too wet, stopping with the pad on the workpiece and always load the pad away from the workpiece. Practice on a test piece of wood or cabinet that you don't mind if its not quite perfect to learn how it feels. You will know when to apply oil or shellac and alcohol. I have found French polishing is very forgiving compared to other finishes. Fabians Tiny Workshop, How to French Polish - Woodworking Finish with Shellac: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRIPkzgUTMIf I don't have any pumice I will sand the timber with 320 grit sandpaper, dust the cabinet and then very lightly sand with very worn 320 grit sandpaper but not produce any mounds of dust. Then I apply the first coat, if the pores aren't quite filled I do it a second time. I use IPA when I can't find denatured alcohol. Zinsser amber shellac is already mixed up to a similar concentration as used in the video. As for all the bezels a soak in soapy water and a good wash is usually sufficient. Polishing can bend and break them, but if they end up shiny and you want to dull them down, apply a timber stain like walnut or dark walnut and once dry, lacquer them to get a durable "aged brass" look. I soak the knobs in hot water and detergent (starting with dish wash) and then scrub them with a tooth brush (not your current one...) Dial glasses and valves numbering is usually water soluble and often fall off when touched. Use a cotton bud damp with water and clean the glass but go around the painted bits (don't try clean the letters at all). Most chassis that dusting doesn't work on, I scrub with a wet steelo pad and put them in the sun or in front of the fireplace to dry completely. As with everything, there is always another way to do it. Its just what I do and find it works for me!
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Post by briano on Jul 23, 2022 12:04:41 GMT 12
Hi Stanley Thank you for your further, and most detailed reply. As it happened, after reading your earlier post yesterday, I did come discover and watch the video you recommend. Yes, It was a really good instructional video. Thank you for the advice that Zinsser amber shellac is already mixed up to a similar concentration as used in that video. I also came across a second video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mXtSj5LXQIThis second video I thought was quite good because it shows preparation of previously finished timber, but in bad condition. The interesting thing is that he used normal purple Methylated Spirits instead of de-natured alcohol. This is shown at 4 minutes 20 seconds in. And, he used a scraper like Steve recommended back on 25th June. As I previously mentioned in an earlier post, the top of my grandmother's radio cabinet is very bad. Steve in his reply of 25th June said that it was originally finished in nitrocellulose lacquer. Steve also recommended shellac. And first using the scraper for most of the cabinet, and then acetone in some steel wool or a rag to finish, and then maybe a light sand at the end. (Steve also recommended for the stains on the top, to use oxalic acid to clean them before re-applying anything). I include here two photos, one showing the front of the cabinet with escutcheons removed. Interestingly, it shows the original colour and finish. The second photo shows the condition of one of the sides of the cabinet. A golden colour, probably from the nitrocellulose lacquer ageing. However, the surface is very dry and rough and needs some attention. QUESTIONS- What do you think about using Methylated Spirits, instead of de-natured alcohol or Isopropyl alcohol?
- Do you think I should scrap all the sides and front (as well as the top) and get down to the bare laminate before french polishing with shellac?
- Or, can you french polish over the previous nitrocellulose lacquer if simply sanded a little?
Thank you for your time and help... Brian. Attachments:
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Post by stanley on Jul 23, 2022 22:37:36 GMT 12
Hi Brian,
In reality Methylated Spirits would probably be ok. I haven't tired it, I just use IPA because I always have a bottle of it and its easy to get (down south it is, not so up north thanks to some creative cooks...) The reason why I use IPA over Methylated Spirits is I don't know if the purple dye has any effects.
I use a cabinet scraper when when the finish is in a similar state to remove the bulk of it. I don't scrape the inlay, curves or edges, I just sand those areas.
Before I had a cabinet scraper I just sanded them with 120, 150 and 220 grit sandpaper. The old finish comes off very easily.
I haven't tried french polishing over the old finish, generally the old finish is flaking or in poor condition so it has to go. For the extra hour of work at the preparation stage to strip the entire cabinet out weighs the time spent re doing it later.
The scratches look like its just the finish that is scratched. I would be very interested to see how cleaning the stains with oxalic acid on the top go. I have a couple radios in the to do pile in similar states. I was considering replacing the veneer on the entire side where the damage is.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 24, 2022 22:08:23 GMT 12
www.vintageradio.co.nz/model/telerad/6v-dw-39I am suspicious that this radio has something to do with the Stanley-Clarke Radio Co in Wellington, and I wonder if your grandmothers radio is the same model(ish). Alan Stanley was an important figure in the Wellington radio manufacturing scene in the early days. Telerad is a slightly confusing brand name - I'm not 100% certain who it belonged to or if it only had one use. If you look into the Telerad Mfg Co (https://www.vintageradio.co.nz/manufacturer/telerad_manufacturing_co) then you find a shyster. But I believe Alan Stanley also used that brand, and he most certainly was not. Perhaps the Telerad brand was Stanleys and the Palmy Nth use of the brand was simply a reseller, or a copier... I don't know. However that Telerad chassis and dial look very similar to your grandmothers... the layout is the same and I suspect it might be from the same manufacturer. This, of course, doesn't get us further ahead since I have no details of that model other than the two photos I have, which I think came from TM. Cheers, Steve
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Post by briano on Jul 25, 2022 11:55:20 GMT 12
Hi Stanley and Steve
Thank you for your recent responses.
Stanley - Regarding the cabinet, thank you for your thoughts on Methylated Spirits. Yes, I too wondered about the purple colouring. Thank you for clarification on the cabinet scraper and recommendation to do the whole cabinet. Will be scary bu,t I understand will be worth doing it properly. I will let you know how I get on once I have scraped back to the veneer and tried to remove the stains.
Steve - Regarding the radio's origin, thank you for the connection to the 'Stanley-Clarke Radio Co in Wellington' and the link to the 'Telerad 6V-DW-39', "manufactured by Telerad Manufacturing Co in about 1939". Pity the cabinet has been painted. Anyhow, yes, looking at the second photo the chassis layout does look similar.
The speaker plug/socket are the same, and the little empty hole above the speaker socket is the same. The mains entry is in the same place. The hole on the left for the antenna is visible, although the hole for the earth is probably obscured by the speaker cord. The rear of the dial construction is the same, as is the triple-ganged variable capacitor. The magic eye is in the same place and similar holding 'ring'. I can see the two holes in the chassis where those tall wet electrolytics would have been. Also, no identification markings on the rear of the chassis which is the same as my grandmother's radio. Pity the speaker is obscured, but it almost looks like it could be a Rola, similar as well.
Very exciting to make that link Steve. Great detective work-!! I wonder what the dimensions of the Telerad 6V-DW-39 chassis are? My grandmother's are: 304mm x 221mm. And, it would be wonderful if we could somehow get more photos too? And valve lineup?
Having a further look at your excellent 'N.Z. Vintage Radio Project' site, I see a 1947 Telerad 5V-BS-47 radio with similar-ish chassis layout and also uses a Rola speaker and an 6SK7 valve. So, there does seem to be a link to the Telerad brand.
Thank you Stanley and Steve for your most helpful responses. And, in fact, a great big thank you to the Society and members that have contributed to my knowledge on the origins and restoration on my late grandmother's radio. I truely am grateful for the time you all have spent helping me.
Best regards, Brian Oliver.
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Post by Steve on Jul 25, 2022 18:23:15 GMT 12
Also, I make my own shellac from flake, and use meths. I put flake in a container, then fill meths to the same level as the flake, then swirl a bit and leave it a few hours to disolve. I've never noticed the purple tint.
And I wouldn't worry about putting the shellac over the lacquer... if it doesn't work it will come off easily (it will all come off easily)...
Cheers, Steve
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Post by briano on Jul 26, 2022 8:11:15 GMT 12
Thank you Steve. Most interesting on making your own shellac from flake, and that you use meths as the 'de-natured alcohol'. Lots of options, ha ha. Thank you for confirmation on the meths.
When scraping/sanding the cabinet, for the front and sides, I take it then, that as long as I bring the surface to a smooth and non-rough surface, I could might away with applying the shellac over the remaining nitrocellulose lacquer. And, decide if it's going to work. Good to know for maybe the inlaid sections of veneer?
Cheers, Brian
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 26, 2022 10:40:59 GMT 12
Just my thoughts on refinishing... If you're going to scrape it, then take the whole cabinet back to bare wood - don't leave any lacquer behind. If you're only going to do the top, then do the same - do the whole top and leave nothing behind. Don't do half a job, you'll end up with a poor finish that you won't be happy with. Scrape, then a light sand, then wipe over with acetone to remove dust and find the bits you missed. If you wipe over with a damp rag it will raise the fibres a bit - you can either sand them back, or apply the shellac then sand back to remove those raised bits of wood-fluff. Then carry on from there.
Having said all that - there are so many different ways to do this, and everyone has their own way - the important thing is a clean canvas to begin with, then a sealer (shellac) then a finish (lacquer)... or just apply many coats of shellac and 'French Polish' it. Or furniture wax, or oil, or whatever finish you prefer. Practice on things that don't matter, then use the method you prefer on the things that do.
Cabinet finishing is one of those things that invites 'Analysis Paralysis' simply because its a bit daunting at first and everyone has an opinion about how it SHOULD be done. Read a bit, get some ideas, then just get stuck into something and give it a go. Both shellac and lacquer can be (relatively easily) removed so if you don't like what you did then its not the end of the world.
Cheers, Steve
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Post by briano on Jul 26, 2022 13:08:19 GMT 12
Steve - Yes, I take on-board your advice to take the whole cabinet back to bare wood. I am thinking I will also do the front and sides. Thank you for the advice on preparation and options for finish. It's amazing how the brain goes around thinking about the job-!!
The weather here on the Kapiti Coast has been a bit wet and cool lately, and thinking I will do the preparation outdoors when we get a nice warm break. Cheers, Brian
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