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Post by DHockey on Mar 14, 2022 8:43:45 GMT 12
I won this Courtenay 65 at an antique auction yesterday. It has a unusual serial number z0029 which is a deviation from the normal Radio Corp practice of having the last numeral of the year as the start of the serial number. Has anyone seen another example of this?   |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Mar 15, 2022 8:40:14 GMT 12
Hi Daniel, thats really interesting - I've seen letters used at the start of serial numbers only once before that I recall - on some of the Courtenay model 17s... On that model page is some information about serial ranges from production which show an F prefix being used. I always just assumed that was something to do with it being Courtenay only.
The 17 came out around the same time as the Columbus model 6, which was a Columbus only model (and one of my all-time favourites for reasons I can't quite quantify). The 6, to the best of my knowledge, did not use letter prefixes.
The 65 was available in both brands - so its not something to do with that I wouldn't think. I wonder if it was a prototype (its a very low serial number by the looks of things), or a special equipment division model for some specific installation like a hospital or school. I am certain I've seen Z as a prefix on special equipment before but I can't for the life of me recall where at the moment. I'll have a look through some of my RCNZ lab gear when I get a chance.
Nice find!
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Mar 17, 2022 9:16:55 GMT 12
I've been ruminating on this one... and something else that makes me think you might have a prototype is the oval dial and the Columbus cabinet.
Courtenay released their model 65 in a different cabinet (at least for the main variant they sold) which had horizontal grill bars, and with a very different dial (the gold style we all love to hate because it flakes away to nothing).
And the oval shape of the dial was more of a 1938 thing for Radio Corp than a 1939 style...
So in light of that I believe you might have a very interesting factory prototype. I wonder if they might have used these to send around the country to different Radio Centres (among other things) to test reception in different parts of the country given that some earlier models caused issues. They were engineered beautifully for Wellington then played up in Christchurch with imaging and beating problems...
If and when you pull it apart I'd love to see some high res photos of the internals... I wonder how the construction looks. The internal wiring would have likely been laid out by Cliff Billings (brother of Wyn Billings - Bellbird radios / Billings Radio Construction Company, and Preston B Billings who owned the Preston B Billings Ltd radio store). He was in charge of the wiring line for a long time and from what I have read and heard he was pretty good at it and well respected.
Cheers, Steve
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Post by DHockey on Mar 17, 2022 10:20:24 GMT 12
If I get a chance over the weekend I'll pull the chassis and post some photos. The cabinet is a bit different from a regular 65 as it appears to me to be a bit smaller and is fitted with an 8 inch speaker, am I right that the Columbus 65 used a 10 inch one? I don't think a 10 inch speaker would fit in this cabinet, it currently has a Rola PM speaker fitted, but I can't see any signs of a larger one being in there previously. When I initially saw the set I thought it was a model 64 www.vintageradio.co.nz/model/courtenay/64 But this has no pushbuttons and a big cabinet for the 10 inch speaker. Just to confuse things further, I have this Courtenay branded 65 chassis in my stash of parts chassis. It came out of a console cabinet identical to this www.vintageradio.co.nz/static/images/models/columbus/65/913301184_2.jpg Which was water damaged sadly.  |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Mar 17, 2022 15:11:39 GMT 12
I just don't know what speaker the table model 65 has - I have a console version which has a 10" speaker but I don't own a chest cabinet style. Like you say, the 64 had a 10" - it was a HUGE cabinet... I remember having one a few years back.
Based on your evidence it looks like there were 'Columbusy' Courtenay model 65's - so that's interesting (although not altogether surprising)...
So the dial might be a genuine Courtenay model that was produced for sale - the chassis serial still makes me think prototype though - I do wonder if it was a factory sample or perhaps a sales sample - Turnbull & Jones would have wanted sales samples before signing off on hundreds, or thousands, of a model being made for distribution around their stores nationwide...
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 17, 2022 20:25:19 GMT 12
I can confirm that the table model Columbus 65 has a 10 inch speaker, I have two in my collection.
But your cabinate does not have the inlays as my two sets.
Jon
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Post by Peter Walsham on Mar 17, 2022 20:54:55 GMT 12
Just a wee bit of food for thought?
Maybe Radio Corp. had 2 or 3 different cabinet designs & sizes for the 65 chassis, and the bigger cabinets used a 10" speaker, while the smaller cabinets used an 8" speaker? What feeds my thoughts are that the Columbus, models: 75/90/91 (and others) used various sizes and designs of cabinets, but the chassis (plural) was the same. Those all had relatively big cabinets to begin with - including consoles, so were all fitted with 10" speakers. However, maybe, the model 65 also had a smaller cabinet design that wouldn't accommodate a 10" speaker?
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Post by DHockey on Mar 20, 2022 8:01:22 GMT 12
Here are the photos of the chassis. A few obvious non-original things like the speaker, power transformer and various replaced components underneath. A 6V6 has replaced the 6F6 output valve.
Otherwise to my eyes it looks more or less like a normal model 65. The main difference is the dial which lacks the volume and tone indicators of the Columbus 65, it also appears to have extra dial lamp holders on the top.
Steve, I can email you high-res photos if you want.
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Post by DHockey on Mar 20, 2022 8:01:59 GMT 12
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Mar 22, 2022 7:16:58 GMT 12
Thanks Daniel, I'd love those photos for reference. If its still out, also check the corners of the glass for a part number because that might tell us something useful... I have a sheet of dial codes in my reference material which I can check to see if it lines up with a known dial. Its not a comprehensive list, but I think it was issued by Radio Corp during one of the big station reshuffles so you could check if a dial was an old one or a new one.
I note with interest there is a model 14 on Trade Me at the moment with an L prefix on its serial number... the 14 was from the same era and the Courtenay 17 I mentioned earlier so I wonder if that was used to indicate something about the manufacturing... I know some of the 14's were produced by the cadets (live-in apprentices) - Bill Heinz wrote about that from memory... it could be something to do with that? I'd love to know for sure. I did ask my friendly ex-RCNZ-tech but he doesn't remember prefixes being used.
Cheers, Steve
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Post by DHockey on Mar 22, 2022 9:49:04 GMT 12
I've emailed you the photos. I'll check the dial tonight for any markings. I have been comparing photos of the model 64 on the vintage radio site and my radio. I now think I am wrong about the speaker size. My radio appears to have an additional baffle added over the top of the original to accommodate the smaller speaker. I have a suspicion that if I remove that additional baffle there will be a 10 inch hole underneath. So I think this is a model 65 in a model 64 cabinet.
Yes, I would love to know what the prefixes are all about too. The L on the model 14 is interesting, I have only seen L on RCNZ test gear.
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Post by DHockey on Mar 22, 2022 20:08:32 GMT 12
Had another look at the dial and there are no additional markings, version number etc.
I'm quite intrigued regarding what sort of speaker this set had originally now. I'm wondering if it was even fitted with a speaker at all when new. I removed the extra baffle holding the Rola speaker and as I expected there was a hole suitable for a 10 inch unit underneath.
I tried putting a RCNZ speaker in the cabinet, and it does fit. However there are no corresponding holes that would indicate a 10 inch had been fitted in the past.
The baffle the Rola speaker is on does not seem original, since whoever fitted in missed drilled one of the holes, the one on the lower right and it ended up being over the recessed portion of the original baffle. They realised the mistake and drilled a new hole a bit further to the left.
My theory is that this radio was never fitted with an internal speaker when it left the factory. Maybe it was meant for institutional use (school, factory etc) and was hooked up to an external speaker(s) Later in life it was sold off and a radio serviceman fitted the Rola speaker.
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Post by Peter Walsham on Mar 22, 2022 20:14:35 GMT 12
Hi Daniel
If that RCNZ speaker field coil becomes 'available', I would be very interested in buying it from you, please.
Peter
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Mar 23, 2022 7:59:35 GMT 12
Is it possible that the 8" baffle was fitted at the factory for an 8" RCNZ speaker? Its a very odd thing that there are no holes for the 10" speaker... I can not imagine RCNZ releasing a set like that, in a cabinet designed for a speaker, without one fitted. They had a special equipment division that built products for special installations and so I expect it would have either had a speaker, or had a different cabinet. Thats very odd and intriguing.
I looked through all my dial and coil data. I have almost nothing for the 60 and 65 which is very odd. I have a listing for coils, but nothing for transformer (T57?), Output TX or dials - possibly because they had so many variations in 1939 sets? I don't know.
IF Coils are R6313 (1st) and R6312 (2nd) - 464kc/s
Aerial Coil R93
RF Coil R92
Oscillator Coil R91 or R6411
Cheers, Steve
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Post by DHockey on Mar 23, 2022 8:28:26 GMT 12
Yes it is very odd. Maybe the 8 inch speaker baffle could be original. Apart from the miss-placed hole its well made and shows no signs of being recycled from elsewhere.
I have noticed one other detail of the chassis wiring that is interesting. The filament wiring is not original. The soldering is not of factory standard and the wiring is messy compared to factory. Which leads me to believe this set had series string filaments and a dropping resistor at some point.
Thanks for the coil details. I think a T57 would have been the correct transformer for the 65.
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